Apple's arrogance of non-upgradeable Macs

Yeah, because the Mac Mini is such a huge market for them sarcasm

I feel sorry for Apple. They don’t innovate, people bitch and complain like 3 year olds. They modernise and make their machines compact, thinner, etc and people complain like 3 year olds. When they first produced the iPhone which changed the direction of the market, people still bitched and complained like 3 year olds. This isn’t just Apple. The point is everyone is doing this. You’re making it out that Apple is the evil corporation. They’re doing it to stay ahead of the competition. They’re doing it because the market demands it. That’s what being in business is. If you want better, thinner, sleeker machines, you have to compromise by removing upgradability.

Yes, you can’t upgrade your machine. Everyone knows it now. It’s not a shock anymore. If you bought your machine 3 years ago and didn’t know the ram was soldered, unlucky. You’ll know the next time when you may have to buy a machine 1 year earlier, but here are some lessons:

Lesson 1 - Buy max spec machine now and you’ll save yourself upgrading, transferring data, having single ram pieces that go to waste etc.
Lesson 2 - See above. The end

Apple have the power to do something different. They do these things because it makes them them most money despite it being the most environmentally damanging , end of story. Apple leads the market and people copy Apple, and thats why the industry has gone this way. The market does not demand that the iMac gets thinner, the market does ask for thin ultra portables, but that does not mean they should make every device non upgradable. Johnny Ive wants thinner machines even where it is unnecessary, but I really can not remember the last time I heard someone say that an iPhone, iPad or MacBook Air was too thick.

Keeping the RAM upgradable in the Mac Mini is not going to cause people to bitch, same with the iMac. The MacBook Air and Retina are perhaps fair play, the ram is soldered for space, and the Retina Pro is iffy. You act like Apple can only offer thin machines, when they should be able to offer a slightly wider selection, as people’s needs do vary. The 2012 Pro’s continued success has proven that there can be a market for an upgradable machine. It speaks volumes that despite it being so damn outdated that it continues to sell, and its not the cheapest Mac out there.

Oh yeah, we’ll just have the whole machine go to waste when people have their machines last for a lesser period. Very few people would be happily using 2008 era Macs without the RAM and storage upgrades that have made them useful well into their 8th years, which has offset a fair amount of pollution that would have been created.

Buying a maximum specced machine is a ridiculous proposition. The Retina Pro that is equivalent to my non retina Pro is around $3500 IIRC, compared to my machine which after upgrades cost $2000. Plenty of people don’t have that sort of money.

In a world where we need to conserve our resources and be conscious of our environmental impact, the continued march towards sealed computers lead by Apple and followed by the industry is sickening.

And what you think I’m the type of person who would accidentally buy a non upgradable machine? This is obviously not about me, this is about people who don’t realise what they’re buying. Most people would look at a Mac and see the price tag and think that the specifications were enough for themselves, when really Apple under specs something shocking, especially with ram… 4GB soldered in machines that are over $1500, though I think they finally put 8GB in the 13 inch Air, pity about the 11 inch.

You mean other than Apple being one of the most environmentally friendly computer brands compared to say Dell, HP, Microsoft, Lenovo, Acer, Sony, Toshiba etc

I know you don’t pick non-upgradable machines, but based on your posts, you also make money out of upgrading people’s machines which means you have a commercial concern.

Being one of the most environmentally friendly in terms of disposal and material use perhaps, but thats only a small part of it, the lifecycle of machines is a massive part and Apple isn’t doing too great there, and they could be doing a heap better.

I do hardware upgrades as part of my on the side computer help. My commercial concerns are minimal, setting up new computers for clients is just as profitable as upgrading previous ones, I just don’t see it as right for customers or for the environmental, I like to see machines with long usable lives.

I kinda wish I had not sold my 2011 Macbook pro, but my 2009 white macbook serves me just as well as the newer one did. The only thing I miss is the SD card reader. I’ve upgraded with RAM, SSD and a new second hand battery and its all good. I’m on an age pension and unlike those of you still in gainful employment, will never again have the financial resources to buy a new machine every time Apple decides to make things not upgradeable… I don’t see why people like me should be excluded from owning decent machines for long periods through upgrades, but we are.

I’ll make do with what I have, I don’t have any choice in the matter, except to switch to a windows machine or linux. And really, I prefer OSX, so its all a bit of a pain.

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Or you do what I did.

I just replaced my 3 year old 4GB Ram MacBook Pro with a Lenevo which offers the ability to upgrade the ram and has a full range of ports.

Yes I prefer Mac OS to Windows 10 (really I do) but NOT to the point of compromising my ability to upgrade my machines.

The iMac 27 and the MacMini are still in the house (as is my iPhone 6S+) but unless Apple change their ‘dumbing down’ hardware direction and realize that they need to offer real professional portables (anyone else miss the 17 inch MacBook Pro?) then the number of Apple machines in my household and business will continue to gradually drop.

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Apple has been going down this path for a long time. I don’t think it’s a surprise.

They’re focussed on the 80% who don’t need upgrades rather than the 20% who do. We’ve seen this with Aperture and the rest of their “professional” products.

When it comes to phones, if you want to tinker, then IOS is not the right platform.

Realistically, with SSD, if you max your ram you are safe. The performance offered by SSD negates any upgrades other than potentially carrying an external, and Apple was well ahead of the rest of the market when it came to HDD performance. As an example, MS only introduced PCIE in the SP4/SB while Apple had it from 3 years earlier so my 3yr old MBA was faster than my newer SP3 as a result, so in short, whilst a lot of the manufacturers were worried about getting an extra 10% from a CPU, Apple was still well ahead because of HDD performance.

Wow - this topic is on fire! :wink:

I know it’s not necessarily historically accurate, but I did find it fascinating in the Sorkin Steve Jobs movie where they talked about the 128k Mac having proprietary tools to disassemble, and the debate about expansion vs closed systems (Apple II vs Mac). Apple has ALWAYS wanted to make closed hardware. Even back in the 80s & 90s, expansion was external (SCSI).

There have just been a few glimpses of open-ness in hardware (PowerMac 8600/9600, Powerbook 1400, Powerbook G3, PowerMac G5, Cheesegrater Mac Pros) but otherwise it’s almost entirely only ever been RAM that’s officially upgradable internally. And at least now it’s soldered, Apple actually ship their machines with a decent amount of that!

I’m in the camp that says “why does there only have to be one way?” not “all machines should be expandable”. I don’t want an upgradeable laptop, but I do want options for better battery life. I’d happily carry an extra 500gms of battery. I’d also love a 17-inch MacBook Pro again.

On the desktop side, I am fine with the iMacs not being upgradable, but it’s a sin that the 21-inch comes with a 5400RPM drive. If it had SSD across the line, I’d be happy. As it is, at least I can replace those shitty drives with standard 2.5-inch SSDs for people… :wink: I’d like to see an expandable Mac Pro, because I personally think external expansion is messy and don’t understand why Apple don’t see that no-one other than massive edit houses like Pixar uses just a Mac Pro and a thunderbolt display. They all have external storage, audio interfaces, etc. etc. A well specced cheese grater + 30-inch cinema display from 10 years ago looks WAY less cluttered, while having all that internally.

I want options for different users. That to me is the most frustrating part about Apple. The continual slide towards consumers who don’t need power, battery life or expandability as the only option annoys me. Why can’t I buy a slightly thicker iPhone if I know I’ll never get a full day out of a 6? We have 4 different colours, and one specification of battery. The priorities are all wrong (and to be honest, completely shallow!). The criticisms people levelled at Apple’s OS in the past (“it’s pretty but not powerful”) have now come true of the hardware… (OS X killed the previous arguments!).

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Yes but Apple don’t allow me to configure the SSD size as an option (at all on the base or midrange models) so even if I max the RAM on the base model I’m stuck with 128Gb storage.

Yes I could fit an aftermarket SSD but with Apple’s recent attitude towards 3rd party repairers and 3rd party parts (with phones and ipads) how long before they refuse to repair MacBook Pros with 3rd party parts?

That did not leave me feeling at all confident that I’d be ok down the track with a 3rd party SSD hence my choice.

If you are working on their base level 13", the mid tier option allows you to go from a 128GB to a 256GB with the only difference being the SSD change so I’m confused. You can get a 16GB upgrade with a 256GB without going to the high level model. The only one that has slight limitations is the highest option which forces you to upgrade your processor. That’s hardly a show stopper.

As for third party repairs, as far as I understand, I don’t think they could legally not repair a piece of hardware. They would have to repair but they could charge for it.

I have to say, for myself, I am not at that tipping point yet - my hate for Windows is still > than my love for OSX - the formula for decision to change over does include upgradability, but that variable has a lower value by many factors compared to usability, stability and my general well-being and mental health.

For iMacs (at least) that is factually inaccurate, historically Apple by default only installed 5400RPM drives and only offered a 7200RPM as a BTO option, they now continue to do this (5400 RPM drive by default) and offer a ‘Fusion’ drive as an option but I think that this is still pairing SSD with a slow 5400RPM drive.

We had a 2012 iMac in here last week and with the 5400 RPM drive in it runs like an absolute pig, much as my 2012 MacBook did until I replaced the 5400 RPM drive with an SSD.

I posted on MT and here about my experiences using SP1 and then SP3 for over 2 years on Win8 and then Win10 - it started off well, but Win10 just started to throw BSODs at me every other day (to be fair, I use a lot of peripherals and that was basically the main cause we think) but that prompted me to go full Windows for work as well as play now (good thing my work IT managed to get me on the network on my Mac). I now don’t use any Windows at all, which has been liberating to be honest.

I can’t go to a 1TB (which is what I really want) without going for the top end model.

In the past I’ve been able to option my configuration without going to the top end model.

I’m not trying to be a ‘windows fanboy’ here, I really do prefer Apple and OS X but Apple are forcing me to choose between buying the MacBook Pro that’s ‘in my budget but doesn’t meet my needs’ or a ‘windows box that’s unfortunately windows but does meet my needs (just not my wants)’.

If I had an unlimited budget sure, but where as 5 years ago using Apple meant a premium on top of Windows of about 25% now it’s almost 100% to get similar spec boxen and that’s not sustainable for me.

My main issue I suspect is that Apple are expecting people to move to the cloud for storage but where I live with my broadband performance and mobile coverage that’s simply not an option, I need large amounts of local portable storage. And yes I know I can buy an external drive but I’m already carrying an external DVD.

Should I really have to carry 2 external drives when 5 years ago I carried none and had enough local storage?

I don’t agree there is a premium, or at least not 100%. Yeah, if you buy a clone maybe, but if you buy a comparable premium machine from one of the vendors, you’ll find the same or similar pricing.

On the issue of externals, you have a variety of options. You have SD drives (256Gb) which would be flush with the machine and unnoticeable. The externals these days are tiny and weigh and you can’t compare them to 2.5" drives which I would also avoid carrying. I have a sony SSD that is in my bag permanently.

OK maybe not 100% but certainly close and definitely more than the roughly 25% I was paying 5 years ago.

Lenevo is IBM (or the spun off division of IBM that makes PC), I’d consider that ‘non clone’.

Their Thinkpad T series are their ‘Flagship Professional models’ (their words).

I optioned the base model Thinkpad T 560 15.6 inch laptop with (note all the available options) -:
16GB RAM, 512GbB drive, IPS non touch screen, finger print reader, backlit keyboard, smart card reader, 6 cell battery (22 hours) and integrated 4G broadband.

The cost for all of that was $2126.

http://www3.lenovo.com/au/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-t-series/T560/p/20FJCTO1WWENAU0?CSRFToken=f811a506-3236-498c-a8f3-c1d7cad96d0c#tab-features

To get the same local storage in a current 15 inch MacBook Pro (which lacks some of the features of the IBM/Lenevo) comes in at $3579 which is an increase of 68% (or about 2/3rds more expensive so not quite double but not far off it).

Other than the minor issue that it’s plastic, is still running SATA3 which is about a quarter of the speed of the drive on the 15" MBP (yes, a quarter because the MBP 15" runs 4 channels of PCIE), is 3cm longer, 2cm wider (you work out the difference that makes in your bag), and weighs about 300grams more, or to put it into perspective, you could carry your MacBook Pro and 6 x 2TB Samsung USB3 hard drives (12TB total over the internal storage) and still have the same weight.

Personally I’d rather take a metal MBP and a 1TB external and be a quarter of a kilo better off with more space in my bag and a drive that is 4x faster.

The weight isn’t really an issue, it only gets carried from the work ute into a work site then back out again. Nor is the speed an issue, the software in use is very light on CPU and graphics needs but very heavy on storage.

And yes I could carry external drives but sitting at a remote location with a laptop balanced on a car bonnet or a fence post or a ute tray isn’t exactly the ideal place to be using lots of external bits and pieces.

Look I’m not trying to say that the Lenevo is a superior machine to the MacBook Pro in every way because clearly it isn’t. Other than the speed it could be a laptop from 10 years ago, but that’s fine. What I want is an updated version of the laptop from 10 years ago! I want a 2006 Macbook Pro with modern processors and drives but if I can’t get that in an Apple laptop I’ll get it in a Windows laptop. Hell I’d settle for an updated plastic MacBook from 10 years ago (and no I wouldn’t care it’s plastic).

Lenevo’s availability of options is superior and the price is substantially less BECAUSE it’s designed in a similar way to Lenevo’s from 10 years ago, it still even has the nipple mouse.

OTOH Apple prices have gone up during a time while Windows laptop prices have either remained stable or have in many cases come down. And Apple have not only increased prices but whilst doing that have reduced functionality by removing ports, by removing optical drives, by reducing upgradability and by restricting 3rd party part usage.

Even the MacPro isn’t as expandable as it used to be, the old cheese grater MacPros were great.

But the new one, it requires external expansion… now think about that for a moment… a workstation machine (well supposedly) that requires external expansion. That’s just wrong.

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Ultimately all this carrying on about non-upgradeable Macs ignores the fact that Apple has done their research and has found that there is such a tiny minority of people who actually do want to upgrade them that it’s not worth the sacrifices to actually accommodate them. If there was a groundswell of opposition to the closed hardware then you may see Apple (and all the other manufacturers who you claim copy Apple for no other reason than they are Apple [which is laughable in itself]) change their philosophy, but that clearly isn’t the case.

My point really is that it’s sad that we only matter to Apple if there are “enough” of us. One size fits all is the sad reality of a company run by the sales people… what did Steve Jobs say about companies run by sales people?

Do BMW only sell one type of car? Do Dyson only sell one type of vacuum? Do phone companies only have one plan?

Apple only sell “thin and light” laptops and “compact” desktop computers. The lack of diversity is justifiable from a “sales analysis” perspective. But that doesn’t mean it’s the best experience for all customers, and Apple like to go on and on about being all about the customer experience. But what they actually mean is they are all about the customer experience for the mainstream majority customer. There is no long tail to Apple’s product line.

While I remember that the dark days before Steve’s return where there were heaps of product lines with almost complete overlap, I’d argue that a little more diversity would be ok (and I’m not talking about new colours!).

I can’t believe that Apple would loose money if they offered a 17-inch MacBook Pro, or a ‘fat’ iPhone with 4x the battery life. They either must not make enough on a 17-inch machine to ‘justify’ it, or they either arrogantly don’t want to make a phone they consider ‘ugly’ because they are fat-ist. :wink:

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