Most people never upgrade their Macs

I used to have a Mac Pro 1,1, but I’ve been using iMacs for 4 years now and with thunderbolt, I don’t really miss the mac pro. I have plenty of fast storage, a 2nd 4k monitor to accompany my 3 year old 5k iMac. My Mac Pro lasted me 6 years, but it was expensive, and I changed the video card once, put in eSATA cards for storage back then.

Most people never upgrade their Macs, apart from memory and the odd SSD. If the iMac Pro lasts 5-6 years as a workhorse, it will pay for itself.

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I figure there would be two parts to that.

  1. Some data that indicates that the vast majority of users never upgrade.
  2. Repair data says that having hard soldered components lowers the overall failure rate enough to offset the increased replacement (instead of repair) costs under warranty.

On that first point, again assuming there is data available, I wonder what that upgrade % is at 1 year vs 2, 3, 4, 5+
My assumption is that people who buy new Macs don’t upgrade them, but people who buy 2/3 year old units probably do. Of course, these aren’t direct Apple customers so maybe they don’t care :frowning:

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People who think Macs are expensive today simply haven’t been a Mac user very long. I can remember back in 1988 when a Mac II cost $10k, back when you could buy a new car for that. In real terms, Macs have become cheaper over the years.

Let’s face it, the iMac Pro isn’t marketed to average users, nor is it marketed to people who like fiddling with the innards. It’s for people who want to get their work done faster, using premium parts for reliability/llongevity.

Most people who’ll be buying this will be writing it off on their tax.

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You’re comparing the longevity of a desktop computer with a mobile computer, and absolutely no sane person would expect 10 years of service from a macbook pro.

All I see here is that you were never ever conceived of as being the target of Apple’s marketing. You clearly don’t value the operating system anymore and are happy to resort to Windows or Linux for the rest of your computing life. Apple, like Audi and other premium manufacturers do not market their main products at the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum. Apple, like others, do extremely well from affluent people, they don’t need nor desire to be regarded as the tool of the common man.

Characterising people who value their experience with Apple over the years ( and it really only got much better after Mac OS X came out) as blind followers is a bit self-serving. I only use Apple products because the alternatives are worse, in my opinion, and yes, I can afford them.

In my opinion, Apple would be unwise to cater towards the tinkerer-class of computer user, because they’re generally the kind of person who expects the world, but doesn’t want to pay for it, so they usually build hackintoshes. Apple has recognised that there is a market for a Mac Pro that isn’t simply an appliance, and it will be interesting to see what Apple delivers next year.

All I see on forums for self-made PC users is a huge amount of the daily issues these self-built PCs have. Now Macs aren’t immune to problems, but they’re tiny compared to the issues the PC world has.

People generally buy Macs because they do what they need to get done, with a minimum of fuss.

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I was of the mentality that I’d be done with Macs once my 2011 MBP bit the dust. I ended up with a base model MacBook Pro on sale for $1200 from Myer. Turns out I want to keep using MacOS and the software I’ve invested in over the years more than I wanted upgradeability. If I get 6.5 years out of this like I did my 2011 MacBook Pro I’ll be happy. If I get 3 or 4 well that’s no better than a $500 laptop and I’ll be pissed.

I can absolutely see Acelon’s point of view. I love my Apple stuff but I am part of the lower socioeconomic group that Matreya refers to. Should I be excluded? Apparently that answer is yes. I can no longer afford any Apple desktops or mobile devices. I’ve had to stop at a 7 year old Macbook which is updated probably as much as it can be, and a 5 year old Mac Mini which hasnt been. Both do their jobs for me, I dont actually need more modern gear. Yet. But when I do, its going to be impossible for me to buy. UNless I can, again, buy second hand at a very low price.

I remember when Macs cost the earth and then some, back in the 80s, and thats why I didnt buy one until 2003 and even then it was an eMac. Thats right… an affordable machine (mind you it was $1800 at the time) for those of us prepared to pay, then a 12" iBook a few weeks later. Mac prices have come down over the years for sure, in line with the exchange rate… But Apple doesnt bother even trying to give the rest of us a chance to buy something both affordable and upgradable. and its actually the latter that bugs me.

I better bail from this thread too, simply because I am not part of the target group for this beast of a machine.

I accept other points of view, but you come into this thread just to whinge about Apple AGAIN. I’m sorry that Apple has yet again made a product that doesn’t suit you, but again, it’s not made for you. You can have another cry about it, but it won’t change the fact. Having another shot at people with disposable income for buying an expensive computer, and whinging about Apple not being what it used to be (and it never was a budget PC maker) is pointless.

I would recommend that the moderator removes our exchanges from the thread, they are not what this thread should be about.

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Alright, we’re back in business.

I moved a bunch of posts from the “iMac Pro price lotto” topic into this one, as it seemed pretty clear that they weren’t related to iMac Pro price discussion. This is a friendly reminder to keep things on topic.

There are plenty of ways to contribute positively to topics without resorting to crapping on Apple at every turn.

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I think the Mac Mini was precisely Apple opening up its market to allow everyday people to experience Macs. The iPhone 5c was the same, and iPods were cheap enough that everybody owned one. They sold music for 99c.

I think it’s a misconception to think Apple don’t target the every man. They’ve just made fewer options so they can keep costs down while maintaining their trademark quality.

Edit: sorry @kyte that wasn’t meant to be a reply to you. I started off suggesting a Mac Mini could be a solution for you and then got on my soapbox haha

The Mac Mini is indeed the budget Apple computer of choice and it’s pretty good value for money.

There isn’t really a laptop cheap option though, not since Apple stopped making the 11 inch MacBook Air.

As for ‘lower socio-economic’ group I’m afraid not, I’m nearer the top than the middle but I resent having to waste money buying the top of the line version of an Apple laptop just to get 5 years out of the laptop.

Unlike in earlier days (like with my 2012 MacBook Pro) I could buy the base model and then update the memory and disk drive for minimal cost after 2 or 3 years and get 5 years of life.

I feel like the ‘tech savvy’ Apple user of the past (the Wozniak types rather than the Jobs types) are increasingly being sidelined.

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LOL! Nothing wrong with the odd soapbox, I say! I all honestly my needs are reducing year by year. I wanted a mac laptop, (wishing I had not sold my 2011 MBP, as soon as it was gone I wanted it back) so I bought the Macbook and updated it as much as my finances would allow, at a speed that they allowed.

The Mini isnt upgradable anymore either (well, not without a great deal of difficiulty) It certainly doesnt cost as much… unless you want to upgrade things which have to be done at the time of purchase. (Which is why I hang onto my 2012 model… there is an SSD and a larger HD in its future, RAM already done to its max of 16GB). Those of us in the lower socioeconomic group can’t do it all at once… hence… no more desktop/laptop Apples for me.

I am not a tinkerer, if I was I would likely have stayed with a Windows/Linux machine. But, being able to update RAM and drives… thats important to me… and also what was important was being able to replace the battery in the macbook, which was all but dead.

iOS devices… thats a different matter. Here I am on my iPad Air 2 which still does the job, but I think I would be content to have the Mini (as it is with no further upgrades) as a Plex server and have an iPad Pro (12.9") as my main device. Not likely to ever happen though, unless I win the lottery.

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Am I “most people” - umm, I don’t like to think so… I’m typically not classified as normal by decree of various research data…

Do I update my Macs? Well, some I haven’t because there was no urgent need, some I didn’t because they were scary (CRTs), some I did because I could, and some I didn’t upgrade, but did self-repair jobs.

For me, upgrade & repairs means screwdriver, not heat-then-glue-guns…

But to the topic… Sure, “most” people would not upgrade their Mac - they buy it, use it, replace it when it doesn’t work any more. They may take it to a professional for repairs if required. Probably that’s where they get the advice to buy a new one. I accept this is the average Apple computer owner.

I just can’t see the point in making a computer that is so hard to access the insides, other than for purposes of increased obsolescence. Am I wrong in thinking that these new iMacs would be more costly to repair due to the way they are manufactured? Ultimately of course, that’s the tipping point - Do you pay $x for a repair, or $x+y to get a whole new machine… If $x is high enough, Apple gets a sale, presumably with a better margin than a repair.

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I never bought this belief that soldering components somehow improves their reliability. The interconnects between components have never been a problem, and rarely does reseating a loose Memory, SSD or Wireless module actually correct a fault, especially when those components are also screwed into place as most of these modules are. There are of course exceptions:

  • Solid Platform Flex cables and card edge connectors that become partially disconnected with sudden drops (some have screw-in retaining brackets to mitigate this issue)
  • When Apple can’t correctly engineer the interconnect cables, such as the broken traces inside the 13" Mid 2012 MacBook Pro HDD Flex cables that would occur again, and again, and again.

Otherwise the most common component failures are from the ones that are soldered on, like the Graphics Processor. The difference of course between a soldered or integrated component and a socketed component is cost. An integrated component costs a lot more in part costs and labour to replace. The above examples, when they occur, are usually quick and cost effective to correct.

I’m pleased Australian Consumer Law somewhat covers us in this regard, otherwise consumers with current generation MacBook Pros would be screwed when their keyboard fails outside of the Apple Limited Warranty. (And they’re failing, I can tell because I’m replacing the bloody things.)

That aside, I’m not that interested in upgrading my machines anymore. My 15" Mid 2012 MacBook Pro was the last machine I performed any significant upgrades to and that machine is still my go-to when performance is critical. Otherwise I’m satisfied working with MacBook Airs that are otherwise stock.

But I don’t like machines being locked down from the user. I don’t believe components should only be serviceable as block modules, like the Top Case w/ Keyboard, Trackpad and Battery assemblies Apple replace when a single component requires attention, and I believe that manufacturers are removing or restricting capabilities all while claiming it’s to improve security.

Remember when Secure Boot was first tabled within the PC industry, a system in which manufacturers and vendors (Microsoft) would have their devices require an approved and signed bootloader, thereby limiting what operating systems those machines could run? It wasn’t received favourably. A few years later Apple unveils the iMac Pro with the same functionality, prevents the system from using any bootchain that isn’t specifically approved by Apple, calls it a “security feature” (protecting against whom, I’m not sure) and it’s received with praise because Apple, such a generous company they are, have our best interests at heart. It’s the same shit with different marketing.

(At least it’s a selectable option for now. It’s almost certain to become the standard on new machines within a few years.)

Consumers that funnel thousands of dollars into this stuff over and over, only to complain when the machine is too expensive, too restrictive, doesn’t do something they want it to, doesn’t have the connectivity they need, or costs too much to fix really need to consider what they’re purchasing ahead of time. Ignore the marketing speak for a moment and look at the motives behind some of the engineering, design and process decisions Apple chose to make with the product, and decide whether you want your dollars endorsing those decisions.

If the answer is no, it’s time to look elsewhere.

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My 2012 quad core mac mini that I’ve upgraded to dual SSDs and max RAM is still going strong as a home media and file server. I would get something similar if Apple stops going backwards with the mac mini.

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Personally I believe any company who thinks soldering RAM= fewer repairs is just trying to pad their sales numbers by taking advantage of customers who are now forced into buying everything upfront(higher cost of RAM due to market demand) vs aftermarket upgrades as a consumer can afford later. Often when consumers buy computers it’ll be when they can afford it or are stuck replacing a Mac/PC ASAP–in my mums’ situation her notebook was failing & had to settle with a specific price point.

On the work front I’ve had to exclude Apple mainly due to the CTO pricing/options, if you want a larger SSD you’re stuck moving up to a more expensive model in some situations. As far as the iMac vs iMac Pro, I view it more as Tim Cook being in a rock & a hard place with a lack of a new redesigned Mac Pro. Currently DDR4 has hit stupidly high premiums, at the moment I’m thankful of buying servers in the spring as 32GB ECC was cheaper but the current tech environment might look uglier until supply levels balance out by 2019/2020.

As far as this topic, I need to buy a new Mac yet the non-nVidia situation left me looking elsewhere. For those wondering about my work, its AI research and CUDA compute projects–eGPUing a 1070/1080 to a Mac would be unrealistic, it’ll be cheaper to buy a Ryzen 7 or ThreadRipper system and jam in two or three GPUs :weary:

I wouldn’t be a bit surprised to see the Mini go. If Matreya is right, and if frankie is right, then the cheap mini and iMacs will disappear, and MacOS based machines will only be available to people with a lot of disposable income. If Sir Jony wants to continue being elite (and he has always struck me as being a bit precious because of his lack of attendance at Keynote Presentations… why is he so special that he never went?) then we can look forward to some wonderful design upgrades, thinner and faster, and nobody but the elite will be able to afford any of it. Steve Jobs must be spinning in his grave.

But, thats in a future I probably wont be about for,

I really don’t see this happening. If the Mac mini and base iMac came standard with small SSDs, they’d be perfectly fine for almost everyone in the target market - slow storage is really their only weakness. They may not have the latest and greatest everything in them, but they are really great computers. I heard a stat somewhere that the MacBook Air is still Apple’s best selling model by quite a margin (education, etc.) so I think these fears are unfounded.

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Me either. Uncle Tim and Uncle Phil have both said recently that the Mini is important and has a future. Not sure what it will be, or be like after the 2014 models which were very disappointing for me, but at least there will be something.

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Current Mac Line Up RRPs - Base Models:

$US - $AU - Model
$ 499 - $ 749 - Mac mini
$ 999 - $1499 - MacBook Air
$1099 - $1599 - iMac
$1299 - $1899 - MacBook
$1299 - $1899 - MacBook Pro
$2999 - $4899 - MacPro

I built this table then I drove around for 2 hours showing the kids Christmas lights and… I’m sure it had a purpose… Please enjoy.